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Lisper wrote:

I think they should spend money on fixing the existing systems....and not move toward this system which will be equally if not more hard to keep in check.

So you prefer a health care based on capitalism (profit-driven) rather than one that's based on welfare for the people in the country?
(that's a question, not intending to put words in your mouth)

Well Rain in short u will never get anywhere with people who dont agree with ur comments when its on the line against the US in this site.  Remember USA is always at the forefront when natual disasters occur.  we are always there first.  maybe thats affecting the budget:/.  This isn't a US based site and just do as I do say your peice and move on.  it dont matter what they say against ur beliefs.  what matter is you r alive u take very good of your family and U live in the greatest country in the world
As for me they kicked me off i think twice and probably will again i dont care i have plenty of computers to re- surface if i want.  Some sites r the reason y prince shuts things down.  its just simple Biased views.  Theres matter ur doesn't.

^^^ I do not think sarcasm or aggression is good for the disenfranchised...if the comment is not in your opinion worth a response..than simply don't respond. 

Outside of the goofie l33t speak that is so common online...I don't see a real problem with her grammer....none that is not common with online posts.    Perhaps there is actually something to the sentiment of these complaints that I as a longtime member of this group simply have been blind to.

Biah wrote:

*looks up disenfranchized*

perhaps not the best use of the word...

Biah wrote:

The talk was on health care.

Well...it's seems at this point it may all be for naught...as the President is going to use the majority democratic presence in the house and congress to force the bill into law.

That should satisfy those who are in favor...but I hope that it leaves a poor taste in their mouth for sacrificing true democracy for what they want.

Be aware that in the US in the last decade we have slowly been rescinding our personal, and civil rights to the government.  They can listen to our phone calls, they can arrest of with no real proof.  In my city it is not unusual to see men armed with sub machine guns in the sub-way ( which makes me ill, as I know they will shoot everyone on the train platform if they need to open fire.)

Basically I will say this...the US will now have Obama's "Universal" health care plan..but this story goes much like the "First They Came .... poem by Martin Niemöller"...and when all of those effected by the law, with their rights stripped without a word wonder why we no longer have the democracy and freedoms of the past...just remember..you wanted it, and when it came..you said nothing.

First they came

"In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Last edited by Lisper (2010-03-10 01:27:39)

^^Geebus....just let it go...for crying out loud!!  The horse is dead no need to beat it!

Reply to topic or not at all.

Michelle0607 wrote:

I am still puzzled as to how many Americans fear health care reform. I can not understand how anyone can b against such a basic right. I don't claim to understand the whole debate but here is what I do understand: USA is the only industrialized country without Universal Health Care. Is it fear of change, fear of the unknown, or just plain and simple selfishness? At the political level, do Republicans really believe what they say or they just can't stand to see a BLACK President succeed?

I think you hit the nail on the head sista!!

Endre wrote:

The "debate" keeps sinking lower and lower:

Protestors shouts racial abuse and spits at black representatives:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 … cKxdKgqBm5

Sad but true boss....I think that sometimes it is more important to be heard than to actually know what you are talking about.

This issue is still very active in the US, not only active but I expect it to pass to law quite quickly...I posted of it...would welcome opinions.

Lisper wrote:

Well...it's seems at this point it may all be for naught...as the President is going to use the majority democratic presence in the house and congress to force the bill into law.

That should satisfy those who are in favor...but I hope that it leaves a poor taste in their mouth for sacrificing true democracy for what they want.

Be aware that in the US in the last decade we have slowly been rescinding our personal, and civil rights to the government.  They can listen to our phone calls, they can arrest of with no real proof.  In my city it is not unusual to see men armed with sub machine guns in the sub-way ( which makes me ill, as I know they will shoot everyone on the train platform if they need to open fire.)

Basically I will say this...the US will now have Obama's "Universal" health care plan..but this story goes much like the "First They Came .... poem by Martin Niemöller"...and when all of those effected by the law, with their rights stripped without a word wonder why we no longer have the democracy and freedoms of the past...just remember..you wanted it, and when it came..you said nothing.

First they came

"In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Pigg wrote:

I dont really know much at all about US politics but I think comparing a Universal Healthcare where people get looked after medically for free to the Nazis masacre of the Jews etc is a wee bit over the top.

what rights are being taken away when people will be treated back to health irrigardless of their income?

The right to screw all the insurance companies in the ass!!! Rich America and its scare tactics when it doesn't want something to pass. 70% of Americans want universal health care, but, as usual no one in congress (that was voted in) wants to do anything their asked to do, because the money is falling in all the right places for them. Do you know how many people die in America every year just because they can't afford health care? Do you know how many families are left in tens of thousands of dollars in debt because of health care cost? The US  government is corrupt and needs to be overthrown...

Last edited by Symbol7 (2010-03-22 03:07:02)

Lisper wrote:

Pigg wrote:

... I think comparing a Universal Healthcare where people get looked after medically for free to the Nazis masacre of the Jews etc is a wee bit over the top.

Agreed, if that in fact is what I was doing.  But I was making an analogy between the feeling of those who bore witness to a fascist state, and said nothing to the US passing the most disagreeable bill in decades that strengthens government control over everyday activity.  The poem, surely, clearly was written in Nazi Germany is not necessarily primarily contained to those conditions.

Pigg wrote:

what rights are being taken away when people will be treated back to health irrigardless of their income?

Your questions illustrate the very danger I'm speaking on.  The idea of true democracy...not what some pundit or politician or number taker says...but the voice of the people.  That is what is really being sacrificed by the people for the "betterment of the people."  and that is how true control begins.  The feeling of democracy sacrificed ...cuz everyone thinks it's right.  That has been and will continue to be America's strength and when a piece of it is damaged or taken....it is up to us all to point out the obvious...they will not take my neighbor when the time comes.

...what if the when, that people like me speak of happens, this health care bill is only an ego trip...and the US is in deeper more economic and social health turmoil.

The existing system was not beyond repair.


That is kind of an American spirit...one I wish should continue.

Even if I'm wrong......the bill is without national support...and must be frowned on.

Symb said 70% of Americans want the change, but you say most Americans don't. wich is it?

Personally, I'm very glad the bill passed!  Many people, especially those who may be self-employed (like some individuals in my family), cannot afford the very expensive insurance that private companies offer.  And sometimes those of us with pre-existing conditions (even minor ones) are denied coverage!  And as someone previously said, the US is the ONLY industrialized nation without universal health care.

I ran into a lady at the gym on Saturday who was complaining about how her insurance premiums would increase if the bill passed.  When I asked her how that would happen, she looked like a stupid deer in headlights!!!  She couldn't even tell me.  So many people don't even have the facts, but they're listening to those politicians who keep saying that the bill is a bad thing.  Also it seems to me that those who oppose the bill the most, are people who already have health care.

^^
well what that doesn't say is that folks like me..who already pay almost 30% of my income to some form of tax or another...will get higher taxes.

It is also mis-leading in areas....when it says that insurance company regulation will be greater.. this is not so.  Insurance companies, and Pharmaceutical companies will have no regulation over the prices and premiums they charge for their product ( ahh capitalism...so what good is affordable health care...if you can't afford the medication)


This plan is as close to a government take over of health care than I wish should take place.

"this might..or might not bend the curve of health care spending.." an admission that it may not fix the main problem with health care in this country.

" no one is proposing new benefits for illegals "
...no they do just fine taking advantage of the system as is...there is no need to give them more....especially since they do not PAY THEIR TAXES!!!

btw..the healthcare system that was in place did cover most of the poor, save for those who arguably made enough to pay their own bills.


I am not saying what I am saying in avocation of the Republicans, or their smear campaigns...I am saying what I am saying as an informed, politically active citizen of the U.S....who voted this president in...and expected change..not more of the bullshit "regime" style behavior of the previous president..but like I was saying..once you are used to relinquishing your rights..it gets easier to do over time.  The change in the opinion polls cold have happened because people wrote into their representatives, and those reps changed their stand on it because it was not favored by their constituency....is that not just as easy to believe as  "we where scared into not wanting the bill"  If certain democrats where not given "incentives" to vote with the president this bill would have never past...we will see what happens at the mid term election...I believe this activity will force another Republican take over of the house and congress because burnt Democratic voters will not vote their reps back into office....regardless of how much money their compliance of this bill got the state or district they represent.
http://change.gov/agenda/taxes_agenda/
promises... promises...
..I do not think that it will effect Obama in any way, as he has the ability to draw on citizens whom normally are not politically active, ie...the very young and the African American population.


This bill was the most Partisen thing I've ever seen the Democratic party do..in my lifetime...these activities are exactly what Barak campaigned against.

Here is a link of some of the more "conservative" and possibly more illuminating arguments as to why folks dis not want this.
http://www.oregoncatalyst.com/index.php … -list.html
Here is a current US liberal view
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-samue … 08473.html

Look ...I have no problem if I am actually wrong about this..but my problem is that my voice and others like me did not get representation..but will be taxed out the ass...I think this country went to war for this in the past.

What has just happened is very real...should not be dismissed and should be thoroughly examined by all Americans..as this Health Care bill was not.

How many of you actually talked to your representatives about it?  How many of you read EVEN ONE PAGE of the bill..and out of those people who actually took time to read the bill...how much of it do you understand?  AND... all of the little 11th hour "ear-marks" or added "pork" to sweeten the deal with weary democrats is not even known or listed...and will not be made available for weeks on end.
http://candicemiller.house.gov/pdf/hr3200.pdf

If Obama can truly reform the Banks..which is roumered to be his next objective...then I can perhaps over look this...as they are the biggest threat to our freedom.

^^ I as a citizen have very little control over what the tax money actually goes toward...but I tire of 'raise' taxes being the answer....as your vid shows...there are tons of other ways to address the US fiscal problems....the banking bail out was done with out a national vote also btw.

Surely I am concerned about taxes, but that is not my ultimate frustration.

Prior to yesterday this was just a heated debate....today it is a travesty of democracy.
my main concern, in the end, is with the Democracy of our country
If this went through a democratic process...and the bulk of the people's will was reflected..and it did not go the way I wanted...I would not be frustrated...as that is democracy.  But when you sacrifice that...then you no longer have one of the key aspects of the American existence.
and...about your vid...my final statement about Obama's intent reflects my understanding and desire to have the banking system change.


The US has always ( in my life-time and studies) been a country of CAPITALISM first and Democracy second.  This bill did not change that..in fact this bill changes very little save for how much taxes are raised, and how much regulation is placed on the businesses that are in the medical field...and just like the S&P savings and loan illustrates...certain industries need over sight.

Your teacher with cancer would have been treated within our  previously existing system also, and perhaps even better because in the US the teacher Union is one with a kick ass health care..so perhaps teacher was not the best job for you to say..but I understand your sentiment.

Last edited by Lisper (2010-03-23 02:11:54)